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Creation or evolution: do we have to choose?
This question (also the title of a recent book by Denis Alexander) is one over which evangelical Christians often sharply disagree. Some (“young-earth creationists”) maintain that the Bible makes it crystal clear that life, the Universe and everything have had their beginning within the past few thousand years. Others (“theistic evolutionists”) are less willing to overthrow the overwhelming scientific consensus, being convinced that the Bible, when interpreted correctly, is perfectly compatible with an evolutionary origin of all that there is, over billions of years.
Sadly, with such widely separated and strongly held convictions, the church often responds with immaturity. Rival factions are formed, each with its own societies, meetings, books and magazines, which exist to strengthen the conviction of their constituents that those on the other side are not only wrong but obviously and dangerously wrong. Encounters are generally heated and unproductive, with one side viewing the other as compromisers on the verge of unbelief and the other reciprocating with embarrassment and frustration at how these simpletons are making the faith look ridiculous. In the midst of this, those of a more conciliatory disposition do their level best to avoid the issue altogether.
It was under this same question that some 60 or 70 people crammed into a small church building in Brighton on Saturday 15 May 2010, to try something more constructive, as Calvary Evangelical Church hosted a debate on the subject of creation and evolution. What took place was a robust yet measured and respectful discussion between two brothers in Christ, with the audience heeding the encouragement of the chair for the evening, Prof. Richard Vincent, to approach this enormous subject with grace and great humility.
First to present his case, after the toss of a coin, was young-earth creationist Dr Steve Lloyd, formerly a researcher in materials science at Cambridge University, and now a pastor at Hope Church in Gravesend and a part-time speaker and writer for Biblical Creation Ministries. Rather than focusing on the “days” of Genesis 1, as might have been expected, the crux of his 20-minute opening presentation was that the biblical narrative and the evolutionary narrative are fundamentally incompatible. The biblical narrative tells the story of a good creation, spoiled by sin and restored by the work of Christ. This can be expressed as a history of physical death: human physical death entered the world as a consequence of sin, and this explains why Jesus, in solving the problem of sin, had to undergo human physical death. In contrast, the evolutionary narrative sees physical death, including human physical death, as part of the original created order, and not as a consequence of sin. Attempts to combine the evolutionary and biblical narratives therefore make it far from obvious how Christ’s physical death has any connection with the problem of sin. Instead, the primary purpose of Christ’s physical death and resurrection seems to be to usher in a new created order of which physical death will not be a part.
Presenting the other side of the argument was theistic evolutionist Dr Ard Louis, a Reader in Theoretical Physics from the University of Oxford who has strong links with organisations such as Christians in Science, The Faraday Institute, The BioLogos Foundation, and The Templeton Foundation. The first part of his presentation was on the issue of biblical interpretation. We must be very careful to distinguish what the Bible actually teaches from what we read into the Bible because of our cultural assumptions. Science, though not dictating how we should interpret the Bible, can help us to recognize when we have misunderstood Scripture. For example, many used to be convinced that the Bible taught geocentrism. Then, when science showed us that the Earth is not the centre of the Solar System, these people looked more carefully at the biblical text and concluded that those passages should have been interpreted differently. This process can be applied to the creation accounts in Genesis. There are various clues in the passages that they are not supposed to be interpreted journalistically (as books such as Luke’s Gospel should be). For example, the sun and moon are created on Day 4, after the creation of light on Day 1, and Genesis 1 displays a careful literary structure. The second part of the presentation was about science. There are many Christians involved in science who see no conflict between their Christian faith and their beliefs in the great antiquity of the earth. Moreover, there is strong evidence for this antiquity, such as that derived from ice cores. And we should not be afraid of ideas of deep space and time, which can be welcomed as displaying the grandeur of the glory of God.
Following these opening statements, the speakers each had ten minutes to respond, after which audience members were invited to place written questions in a box, which formed the basis for around 30 minutes of discussion, led by the chair. Various matters were covered, such as biblical interpretation, the “days” of Genesis, evidence for pre-historic man and genomics. Two further issues deserve some reflection.
The first is the importance of the question itself. Louis made the point that from his perspective the “how” of creation is of secondary importance: the main teaching of Genesis is clear and doesn’t depend on how God created. Having said that, the debate does have some importance, because many Christian students struggle with reconciling their faith with their beliefs about science. In contrast, for Lloyd the “how” of creation is itself of great importance, being, as he sees it, very closely connected with the core elements of the gospel message. This makes the debate difficult, as one side sees the issue as important for understanding the gospel while the other side sees it as relatively unimportant.
The second issue is the way “ordinary” Christians respond to hearing experts disagree about the Bible. How are they supposed to have confidence in the Bible if those who study it seriously can reach such different conclusions? This is not easy to deal with. But it is important for “ordinary” Christians to be equipped to interpret the Bible for themselves, so they can have confidence in what they believe and why they believe it, instead of relying on “experts” to interpret the Bible on their behalf.
My own reflections on the two positions are that Lloyd presented some strong arguments on how we understand the cross of Jesus that were not adequately addressed, while Louis clearly had the upper hand scientifically, in that creationist models of earth history are very under-developed and go against the overwhelming consensus of Christians (and others) with expertise in these areas. But, in summary, the debate for me exemplified the kind of serious but respectful dialogue that is utterly vital if the church at large is to make progress towards unity and maturity in this area.
(A recording of the debate is available from the website of Calvary Evangelical Church, Brighton, www.calvary-brighton.org.uk.)
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about 2 months ago
HI Anthony,
An interesting glimpse inside this religious debate.
How do you feel about creationists attempts to sneak their beliefs into science classes in the UK?
Thanks,
Psi
about 2 months ago
Hi Psi,
Thanks for the comment/question. Sneaking sounds a bit underhand, so I guess that’s not a good thing. But if a sizable fraction of the population believes in something that goes against the scientific consensus (creationism, homeopathy, astrology, etc.) then the science classroom seems the ideal place to discuss these beliefs and why most/all scientists reject them.
Anthony
about 2 months ago
Hi Antony,
Well you have hot on two good points there straight away.
The sneaky bit;
I mean claiming that the theory of evolution is scientifically controversial, claiming that the age of the earth and the universe is scientifically controversial and requesting that such controversies should be given equal weight with kids being left to make up their own minds – in a science class mind you.
Perhaps you are unaware of the activities of Truth in Science last year? Here are some details;
http://bcseweb.blogspot.com/p/evolution-exposed.html
The discussion versus teaching bit;
Kind of a bit of an overlap with the sneaky bit, but I think there is a lot of difference between discussion and teaching.
Do you think a discussion should include the fact there is no science behind most creationist claims?
How can that be done without telling someone their religion is false (which clearly is not the point of science classes)?
BTW have you come across much creationist material in your own area of science?
Thanks
Psi
PS I am genuinely interested in your views and I am keen to try to deepen my understanding of these issues as seen from a person with faith.
about 2 months ago
Hi Psi,
I’m very much against a sharp separation of different subject areas. Religious beliefs about the Bible lead to claims about history that can be investigated using the scientific method. So if science suggests that certain religious claims are false I have no problem with that being discussed in a science class.
I haven’t been following Truth in Science much, but will have a look. For me, the reason for discussing these subjects in school is that probably a lot of the children in the school already believe this stuff. And the reason for discussing it in science classes (as well as in RE classes) is that much of the justification for those beliefs is framed in scientific language, and there’s no reason to expect an RE teacher to be able to explain how the bacterial flagellum might have evolved (for example).
Can you explain how “discussion” is different from “teaching” in that sentence?
Anthony
about 2 months ago
Hi Antony,
Well I presume any discussion would have some kind of structure and hopefully that will be based upon the appropriate subject matter. In this case a discussion about creationism in science class that didn’t include this as a simple statement would seem to be veering away from science.
“Teaching” it IMHO would involve more than a simple statement but would involve exploring the various nuances and getting the kids to work out what is wrong with some of the claims.
Somewhere in the back of my mind is the thought that someone ought to be coming up with some detailed ideas about this including referenced teachers notes, suggested discussion topics, Q&A’s, lesson plans etc for both RE and science.
I know folks from the BHA and also Anglicans who would be interested in contributing to such.
We might get the “debate” about creationism in schools beyond the knee-jerk reaction stage.
I would value hearing your opinion on this.
Perhaps we should continue this by email?
Psi
about 2 months ago
Hi Psi,
I tend to think of “teaching” as passing on facts and “discussing” as inviting people to consider arguments and counter-arguments. So I wouldn’t expect creationism (or homeopathy etc.) to be “taught” as though it was true, but I would hope it would be “discussed” (presented, evaluated, critiqued).
You’re welcome to email me (use the “Contact” box) but I don’t know how much I’d be able to contribute. Also, I’m surprised to hear that the BHA (and presumably the BCSE?) are keen to have creationism and ID presented and discussed in science lessons – or have I misunderstood??
Anthony
about 2 months ago
For seventeen years, the truth of Genesis has been known to mankind, yet those who claim to believe the Bible still support the lies of evolution. How? By refusing to allow the people to hear the truth. They instead teach such false doctrines as Genesis “being allegorical”, or a “book of faith”. Withholding the literal truth of God’s Word is the same as telling the people a lie. “For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all there in them is, and rested on the seventh day:” is the literal gospel truth.
The current doctrines of Creationism either deny scientific reality, or deny the literal truth of scripture, compromising with secular science. Young Earth creationism makes Genesis seem like a myth, saying the dinosaurs and mammoths died in the flood of Noah. But Noah’s Flood was in 2611 BC. The dinosaurs all died 65 million years ago, and the mammoths died out during the Ice Age of 10,000 years ago. When our children are taught such foolishness in church, and they find out differently in school, no wonder we lose youth attendance. They are not being taught biblical realty.
In an attempt to compensate, many of the clergy try to compromise and say that God used evolution, or the text in Genesis is just allegorical, and is not to be taken literally. Do you want to tell God that His Word is not to be taken literally, and can’t be trusted? That is being a hypocrite at best, or an infidel at worst. Old Earth creationism teaches that there was either theistic evolution, age long days, or gaps between the days in Genesis chapter one. This is because the truth of Genesis has been stranded outside the church and seminaries, knocking at the door, but not allowed to come in. Why? Because the world of theology doesn’t understand the text, is too stubborn to admit it, and fails to learn the correct rendition of scripture. All this confusion is unnecessary.
The correct opposing view to evolution is the “Observations of Moses”, not creationism. It explains the first chapter of Genesis, conveying its proper interpretation, which aligns with the discoveries of science. Questions are answered such as “where did the water come from”, “why does the evening come before the morning”, “was mankind first or the animals”, “where are the dinosaurs in Genesis”, and also “why do new species suddenly appear in the fossil record at different ages in geologic history”? These and other questions are answered in the presentation, using correct literal interpretation of scripture, without compromise. Even the Sanhedrin in Israel was stunned. They had considered Genesis to be allegorical, and didn’t know “how to act” when the truth was revealed to them. The first reaction to it was the use of the word “WOW”. But unfortunately, after they calmed down, they felt it was more important to protect the false teachings of earlier patriarchic rabbis, than to now embrace the literal truth. However they at least acknowledged that they couldn’t find any scriptural error, and that literal interpretation of scripture was presented, but just not as they taught possible.
Yes, the controversy will end, when stubborn creationists wake up the truth of Genesis, and stop trying to propagate false and foolish doctrines. It will end when pastors, priests, and rabbis will allow it to be shown to their congregations and communities, and stop hiding the truth from the public.
Herman Cummings
Ephraim7@aol.com
about 2 months ago
Hi Anthony,
The BHA has been campaiging for better RE for years now;
http://www.humanism.org.uk/campaigns/religion-and-schools/religious-education
The discussion of creationism as non-science nonsense is oft debated.
BCSE is religiously neutral – we have many religious members. BCSE is against creationism being taught as science not against it being debunked as pretend science.
My own view is that this would work best if coordinated with RE lessons in some way.
I have also thought for some time that it is the theological arguments that creationism is nonsense that are more powerful for countering creationist claims with their own followers.
I have also thought that moderate religious folks i.e. non literalists, would be (frankly) embarrassed at the creationist antics and it also struck me as odd that they seem to do so very little about it.
What do you think?
Psi
about 2 months ago
Hi Psi,
Interested to know what you think are the theological arguments against creationism.
All the best,
Anthony
about 2 months ago
Anthony,
Thanks for taking time to attend and report about this event. I found your post with a Google Alert I have set up for “Ard Louis” as he’s become a favorite of mine in recent months.
I first heard/saw him at Biologos (http://biologos.org/blog/author/louis-ard/) and this is a nice talk called “Can Science Explain Everything” given at Stanford University in the US (http://www.veritas.org/Media.aspx#/v/904).
Your summary…
“But, in summary, the debate for me exemplified the kind of serious but respectful dialogue that is utterly vital if the church at large is to make progress towards unity and maturity in this area.”
…IMO, is spot on. I’m glad to hear your report.
about 2 months ago
Hi Anthony,
Nothing original from me, just the usual;
By avoiding “inerancy” (which BTW can still vary lots even though it is the “only literal reading”) you can take genesis as poetically telling you about your place in the world.
You don’t claim to be following the original and true faith, when anyone can read the history books and see creationism in its modern form was invented in the southern US in the early 20th century.
You have an intensified PoE with God that can and does regularly interfere to twiddle with beetle designs etc etc and you must make god responsible for every single bad thing that happens.
You don’t have to follow the far right wing politics it is used to “justify”. In particular creationism’s views on the submission of women send most moderate folk running.
You further have to dance and bend your interpretation to explain the literal phrases which are simply and clearly wrong – the moon being a source of light. The two ways Judas died etc.
You don’t undermine many people’s faith when they spot the fibs being put around about fossils, geology, physics, chemistry and even Astronomy (As I am sure you must be aware).
That’s just a starter.
But Denis Alexander covers most of these and more in the book you mention in your post I think.
Was this a test? Did I pass?
I repeat that I am genuinely interested in your views on the issues I raised.
Thanks,
Psi
about 2 months ago
The theological problems with theistic evolution (listen to the MP3) seem to be at least as weighty as the ones you mention.
Do press me on specific issues if you like…
All the best,
Anthony
about 2 months ago
Hi Anthony,
I will struggle to find the time to listen to all that.
Can you give us a few lines (like I did above for you)?
I have asked you a couple of times to elaborate on some issues and pressing you (again) would feel a bit rude.
This is your blog and if you don’t want to answer that’s up to you and fair enough.
Cheers,
Psi
about 2 months ago
On the theological issues? They are discussed in the first 30 minutes of the MP3, and summarized in my original blog post. Not sure I have time for a wide-ranging discussion, which is what you seem to be asking for, but if there’s anything specific…
All the best,
Anthony
about 2 months ago
No, sorry, completely lost.
I asked a few specific questions a couple of times already.
All the best,
Psi
about 2 months ago
I thought I answered most of them. Never mind – good to discuss things anyway!
Take care,
Anthony